[QuadList] OT--Early Television Foundation annual conferencecoverate--TV Technology magazine

Sun May 20 00:09:55 CDT 2012

Hi, Ed,

Sounds like you had fun in Hilliard.  How are things in Omaha?

I was hoping to attend the CBS Retired Engineers' lunch but the installation I'm part of in NYC got shifted, and has blocked my attendance from happening. 

Regarding the NBC to CBS playout of one or more of the Astaire shows you worked on:

I'd read some brief info about NBC playing out to CBS (Your Color pages, and Kris Trexler's website?)

Based on what Don Kent told me about the tapes you worked with, I have some doubts that there was any "live to network air" playback from NBC to CBS.... at least in 1965.

Here's part of his reply to an e-mail I sent both of you back on May 3:
>  RE: NBC playback to CBS--Astaire shows and other restoration details

I had sent my long overdue "Part 2" to the saga of the tapes you, Don and Dan worked on in 1988... and wanted feedback and fact checking before I put it out to the list, and put it up as pages on the website.

I said:

I'm particularly interested in whether you have any information about: 
How the 1964/65 CBS Astaire broadcasts were prepared.  Particularly regarding how the playback of "An Evening with..." was addressed.  Where any NBC playback to CBS was done, and when.

Is it possible High Band copies were made for CBS?

More information about how NBC put together "An Evening with..." since it seems to have had a number of roll-in elements.  Was there a master tape made for playback at airtime?  Was the show rolled together to air?
I was also wondering how CBS made the deletions of the Chrysler sponsorship mentions in the shows.

A tape of the second show apparently had some physical deletions of mentions, which Don thinks were done by CBS.  If so, where, when and how?

My understanding from several exchanges with Don is is that only the first show, "An Evening with Fred Astaire" was RCA Labs, and that the other two were Low Band Color.

Don replied on May 3 (edited to the relevant details) with some specific info I've put in bold:
> Hi Ted,
>  
> Good to hear from you.  I don’t know how much help I can be with how CBS aired the things.  Probably Ed or Dan have more details.  From all I was told, though, the first show wasn’t done as a tape playback.  It was live with the roll in segments played individually.  The dance routines were on the roll-ins (complete with the banding of the day).  The host-banter, etc., was live.  You may want to talk to Bud Yorkin about how it was done.  Maybe he can put you on the track of other folks who know more.

Although from looking at the clips Kris Trexler posted to YouTube, not all the dance routines were on roll ins.

So how did NBC end up with a complete program on either/both of the first and second airings? Did "Live" mean "Live to Network" or "Live to Tape," with the roll-ins being played during the taping?

I gather that the roll-ins were in the batch of tapes you had to work with.  Was there a complete program on tape?

It would seem so for the January 1959 airing on NBC.

What did CBS play to air? Especially if they needed to dump any Chrysler references.

At least for the first show, I would have thought CBS would have had a dub made and worked with that. And in 1965, High Band was quite likely present at both NBC and CBS... in Burbank, TVC and NY.

If a dub was done via an NBC to CBS line, or a copy made at NBC, is there a tape in the CBS Archives, somewhere?

As I said in my May 3 e-mail...

> Since the programs were recorded in Burbank, and Astaire's LA based production company owned the shows, I would be very surprised if the RCA Color (or RCA Labs) playback was done in New York... although who can tell without a lot of research.

Don's response to my May 3 message continued...

> I can’t tell you the pedigree of the other two.  As for the second show, I suspect that it was a series of blade-edited sequences and probably played from tape as a complete show.  We didn’t look into it much.  We were too busy lining up all the black and white segments to replace those that had been cut out of the tape by CBS.
>  
> The third one, especially, appears to be a typical taped Greg Garrison show (he directed it).  Very “canned”.
>  
> To answer your question about the high band copies, I can only speculate.  You really need to talk to an old-timer at CBS.  It would make perfect sense, especially since it was a full hour on the network.  If there were copies they’re probably gone by now. 

He reiterated the "how the tapes came to us" history... adding:

>  I was always disappointed that the AVR-1 couldn’t properly play the heterodyne recordings.  There’s a commercial in the first show that includes the UCLA Marching Band and a dance segment in the second show, both done in heterodyne.  For our restoration we used the commercials from the second show in the first show.  When it  aired on The Disney Channel the commercials weren’t shown, so it really didn’t matter.  Only the billboards made it to air, and they weren’t Het.  Of course, there’s a BUNCH of heterodyne in the third show commercials, but not too many people saw the commercials.
>  
> Ed will be able to fill you in on the method of connection between NBC and CBS for playback of the first show.  It’s the one done in the RCA Labs format.  The second and third are standard L.B.C. 

And then he said:

> That hookup was done for the 1959 airing. 

Did CBS air the first show, "An Evening with Fred Astaire" in 1959??  A 1959 airing on CBS doesn't show up in any of the online research I've done.  Have I missed something?

> As I think more about it I’d bet that high-band copies were struck and the 1965 CBS airing came from one of them.  I don’t know how good the paper records are at Television City, nor do I think there’s anyone around anymore who can tell you about the circumstances.  I do know that double rolling was done as protection for network originations.  1965 wasn’t in the Stone Age!  They were reasonable sophisticated by then.  If there were a copy, and it turned up, I wouldn’t expect the quality to be as good as the original, though.
>  
> Also, I can’t tell you anything about NBC playing color for ABC.  You’d think they could afford a color recorder by the time they got into it!  I have a copy of an ABC color show from December of ’62 (Dan Einstein has the original).  I think it was ABC’s first color playback, and was in standard L.B.C.  I recall (without actually looking) it was a Bing Crosby show, and not too good at that!  I don’t remember the crew credits.  Maybe Dan has a listing.
>  
> Hope this helps a little.
>  
> Best,
>  
> Don Kent

So... I've got a lot of questions looking for answers.  I'd appreciate whatever you can fill in.  

As time permits, I'll see whether I can dig up anyone in LA or NYC that might have a clue.

I know how to reach the Archivist at TVC... and you might want to think about being in LA on or about Nov. 30, this year.  

I'm hoping to arrange a repeat of the the visit to TVC that Dave Keleshian arranged... but this one for the 56th anniversary of the first use of VT on network air.

Thanks again,

Ted

On May 19, 2012, at 12:17 PM, Ed Reitan wrote:

> Hi Ted,
>  
> Good Hearing from you.
>  
> I follow the quadlist news group and it appears as you have been having much fun.
>  
> hope you have some luck in finding some old CBS tape engineers at their reunion.
>  
> It would be interesting to hear if any remember CBS receiving a feed from NBC New York and NBC's  playback of "An Evening with Fred Astaire that went to air on CBS in 1965. 
>  
> CBS could not play the early RCA Labs color tape - it took NBC to do it.
>  
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ted Langdell
> To: Ted Langdell
> Cc: Quad List
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 11:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [QuadList] OT--Early Television Foundation annual conferencecoverate--TV Technology magazine
> 
> I should add that QuadList member and Emmy-winning engineer Ed Reitan made a presentation about RCA's prototype color sets.
> 
> Ed's done a lot of research into RCA color... and was instrumental in designing mods to Ampex AVR-1 boards to enable recovery of the oldest known color videotapes.
> 
> On May 19, 2012, at 9:22 AM, Ted Langdell wrote:
> 
>> QuadList member, AVR-2 restorer and TV Technology Technical Editor James O'Neal gets around.
>> 
>> Last seen at NAB... he's since been to Hillard, OH for the Early Television Foundation's annual gathering.
>> 
>> James reports it had record attendance, and quite a few examples of old, cool technology:
>> 
>> http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/television’s-past-resurfaces-at-annual-conference/213424
>> 
>> 
>> Ted
>> 
>> Ted Langdell
>> Secretary
>> 
> 
> Ted
> 
> Ted Langdell
> Secretary
> 
> 
> 
> Please trim posts to relevant info when replying.
> 
> Change subject to reflect thread direction. Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
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Ted

Ted Langdell
Secretary

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